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Post by meldrew on Jan 12, 2013 11:06:55 GMT 1
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVpFW_Aecm8this has just been released by openminds TV I thought this worth looking into in more detail. The Mussolini UFO files from Alfredo Lissoni, Italy's National UFO Center based - and updated - from an Antonio Huneeus's article (first published in Fate, September 2000). Roberto Pinotti, Italy's leading UFO author and director of CUN (National Ufological Centre, now the world's largest civilian UFO research organization), and Alfredo Lissoni, another CUN researcher and writer, gave a lecture, during the annual International UFO Symposium in San Marino, on the sensational discovery of alleged "X-Files" going back to the 1930s, when Italy was ruled by the Fascist regime of Benito Mussolini. Copies of 18 secret documents from the Fascist era (handwritten notes and telegrams), as well as a forensic report authenticating one of the the papers (with a drawing of an UFO), were released by CUN to the Italian media last April 2. It received considerable coverage in Italy, including the national TV network RAI Uno and leading newspapers like Il Resto del Carlino, La Nazione and La Repubblica. Although these articles were posted in Italian on the web, the Mussolini UFO documents were hardly noticed by the American UFO community, so this is the first time the full story is told in any detail outside Italy. web.tiscali.it/lareteufo/mussof1.htmI have only just started on this, there will be more to come as I go through it, your all welcome to chip in with anything
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Post by meldrew on Jan 12, 2013 11:36:00 GMT 1
With its anonymous postings and references to a mysterious, super secret "Cabinet RS/33," supposedly in charge of collecting, investigating and suppressing UFO data, this story has many similarities to the MJ/12 saga, as Lissoni points out in his articles far "UFO Notiziario". But there are significant differences. The main one is that the Italian documents received anonymously in the mail by Pinotti, starting in 1996, were original and not photocopies or undeveloped film, as in the various Mj-12 drops to Shandera, Berliner and Tim Cooper (in 2000 anonymous "Mister X" sent more material addressed directly to Mr. Lissoni, but in the mail by Pinotti). The difference between an original and a copy is pivotal since it allows forensic analysis of the paper, typewriter ink, ageing process, and so on. Antonio Garavaglia, a top Italian forensic consultant, conducted tests on the Mussolini papers - but we are getting ahead of our story. It all began in early 1996 when Roberto Pinotti received a handful of handwritten notes on stationery bearing the seal of the "Kingdom's Senate". (Mussolini ruled Italy with an iron grip, nominally under the king). The year is 1936 and the secret agent uses simply a first name "Andrea" (Andrew in Italian) and also includes a sketch of the "mysterious airship". "It was sighted in the morning (and not in the evening) of Monday - he writes - it was a metallic disc, polished and reflecting light, with a length of ten or twelve meters. Two fighters from a near base took off, but were not able to reach it even at 130 km/h. It didn't emit sound, which would lead one to consider an aerostat. But nobody knows of balloons that can fly faster than the wind. I know for sure that it was seen by other aviation pilots ... it [report] has arrived to the hands of Ciano." Count Ciano was Mussolinis son-in-law and Italy's Minister of Foreign Affairs; he was later executed after participating in the cabal to overthrow the Duce and surrender to the Allies in 1943. Andrea's report continues: "Then, after approximately at least an hour and after passing over Mestre, it was seen as a sort of metallic tube, gray or slate." A drawing by a confidential informant was redrawn by Andrea, who explained that "A was described like a kind of aerial torpedo, with very clear windows ... and alternating, white and red lights.'B' were two 'hats, two hats like those used by priests: wide, round, with a dome in the center, metallic and following the torpedo without changing their relative positions." The document mentions that "the Prefecture has opened an inquiry, but you can imagine that it will make little inroad and will have a similar outcome to that of '31. The Duce has expressed his worries, because he says that if it were a matter of real English or French aircraft, his foreign policy would have to start all over again." Although Andrea's report is only one of several received since 1996, you can see that its contents are sensational - they describe a classic flying saucer report with aircraft scramble and multiple witnesses in 1936! It also, discloses that Mussolini and Ciano, Italy's number one and two leaders at the time, were intimately appraised of the situation. Indeed, other caches of documents received, always anonymously, by CUN and the newspaper Il Resto del Carlino, mention a mysterious department known as "Cabinet RS/33." It was charged with both investigating and covering up what the documents call "unconventional aircraft" or "aeromobiles." Cabinet RS/33 had links with the Fascist secret police OVRA and with "Agenzia Stefani," the regime's news agency in charge of disseminating Fascist propaganda. Italys most famous scientist and inventor, Guglielmo Marconi, was the director of the Cabinet, which also included several other prominent Italian astronomers, scientists and aeronautical engineers. When the war began the Cabinet's secrets were shared with and literally shipped to Nazi Germany. As Lissoni points out, rumors of Nazi discs have plagued the UFO literature for decades, and one Italian scientist, Giuseppe Belluzzo, is always mentioned in conjunction with the Germans Miethe, Schriever and Habermohl. Much nonsense has been written about the so-called Nazi flying saucers - some of it unabashed neo-Nazi propaganda - yet undoubtedly there is at least some truth to the matter. The names of Miethe, et al., are confìrmed by FBI and other U.S. and German documents. Are the "Fascist X-Files" authentic? To Lissoni (who made principal search), Pinotti,and the CUN, they appear so. To the investigators'credit, however, the whole affair was kept strictly confidential under Antonio Garavaglia's forensic analysis was completed. Only then were the documents released to the Italian press and published in a series of articles beginning with the March issue of UFO Notiziario (and now, in a book). Garavaglia conduced a series of chemical tests of the paper and ink - remember he had originals and not copies - and he concluded they seemed authentic handwritten documents from the Fascist era. The colour of the paper and ink ageing process led him to believe they were genuine and not modern forgeries. Lissoni also consulted with Andrea Bedetti, a historian and expert on Italy's Fascist period. "I cannot exclude the real existence of a Cabinet RS/33," said Bedetti. He also examined the documents vis-à-vis "the lexicon and the bureaucratic style of the period", as well as the stationery ("Kingdoms Senate" and Stefani agency telegrams) and aeronautical terminology utilized. Bedetti found that all of it was consistent with genuine Fascist-era documents. This didn't rule out a skilled forger, but it would have to be someone deeply knowledgeable of Fascist style, vocabulary and terminology. Bedetti also pointed out that in the period 1933-40 - coinciding with the alleged Cabinet RS/33- Mussolini's power was at his peak and Italy was one of the world's leading nations in aviation and military aeronautics. Finally, Lissoni dug up a cryptic reference from a speech by Mussolini on February 23, 1941, when the Duce stated: "It's more likely that the United States will .be invaded by unknown but warlike inhabitants from the planet Mars, who will come down from the starry space on unimaginable flying fortresses, than from the soldiers of the Axis". What was the Duce trying to say? The story of the Fascist X-Files is still unfolding ... if in the end they turn out to be real, then the whole history of ufology will have to be revised. web.tiscali.it/lareteufo/mussof1.htm
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Post by meldrew on Jan 12, 2013 13:00:38 GMT 1
there is a wikipedia article on this, in its entirety 1933 In 2000, Roberto Pinotti published material regarding the so-called "Fascist UFO Files", which dealt with a flying saucer that had crashed near Milan in 1933 (some 14 years before the Roswell, New Mexico crash), and of the subsequent investigation by a never mentioned before Cabinet RS/33, that allegedly was authorized by Benito Mussolini, and headed by the Nobel scientist Guglielmo Marconi. A spaceship was allegedly stored in a hangar in Vergiate. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_sightings_in_Italy
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Post by dbh on Jan 14, 2013 16:19:30 GMT 1
What an interesting story. Thank you for sharing.
The most interesting aspect in my mind is that the documents were the original. To me... in the days of collectibles, and etc, it seems sort of un real that someone... who had these in their possession... would just give them away...
I am always one looking for a motive for such action, is it what it appears, a whistle blower just coming forward for the sake of humanity?
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Post by meldrew on Jan 23, 2013 16:08:26 GMT 1
I was kinda hoping that we could get copies of these files to post on here, that would be good, hiflier your good at tracking down this sort of thing,
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 18:27:31 GMT 1
Hello meldrew, I'm doing this somewhat hastily and for that that I apologize The article at the bottom of the site will have to be translated from Italian and I'm working on that: web.tiscali.it/lareteufo/mussof1.htm
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 18:44:27 GMT 1
Hello All,
The links are broken and say "Forbidden". The Newspaper links at the bottom of the site are bogus. I'm on it!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 19:16:24 GMT 1
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Post by meldrew on Jan 27, 2013 19:52:38 GMT 1
that link hiflier has some info in it, may be worth bringing the article here, Continuing research on the "files" fascists. According to this document, recently emerged and sent to several magazines between 1933 and 1940 at the University La Sapienza of Rome would secretly operated a team of scientists working to understand the nature of strange "unconventional aircraft" (which today call UFO), after which one of them would presumably landed in England in '33, recovered in a hurry by the Fascist secret police and disappeared into thin air as you can see it will need some work, and whats this about a ufo landing in england in 33
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 19:55:59 GMT 1
Hello All, Here's an example of some of the stuff I've never seen:
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 20:00:49 GMT 1
Hello meldrew,
Yeah, the article is large and there's a lot of photos to be culled out to be sure. The crashed saucer in England will be in your court. It would appear that censorships only occur between a gov't and it's own citizens as this would seem to indicate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 20:23:41 GMT 1
Hello All,
Here's another amazing photo how come I've not seen this stuff in my Horten searches?
Edited for spelling, sorry
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 22:59:48 GMT 1
that link hiflier has some info in it, may be worth bringing the article here, Continuing research on the "files" fascists. According to this document, recently emerged and sent to several magazines between 1933 and 1940 at the University La Sapienza of Rome would secretly operated a team of scientists working to understand the nature of strange "unconventional aircraft" (which today call UFO), after which one of them would presumably landed in England in '33, recovered in a hurry by the Fascist secret police and disappeared into thin air as you can see it will need some work, and whats this about a ufo landing in england in 33 Something must've been lost in the translation process. I'm led to believe the actual term should be and probably is "Milan", not "England".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 23:12:56 GMT 1
Hello All, I R-E-E-E-EALLY like this one!
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Post by meldrew on Jan 28, 2013 16:57:40 GMT 1
that link hiflier has some info in it, may be worth bringing the article here, Continuing research on the "files" fascists. According to this document, recently emerged and sent to several magazines between 1933 and 1940 at the University La Sapienza of Rome would secretly operated a team of scientists working to understand the nature of strange "unconventional aircraft" (which today call UFO), after which one of them would presumably landed in England in '33, recovered in a hurry by the Fascist secret police and disappeared into thin air as you can see it will need some work, and whats this about a ufo landing in england in 33 Something must've been lost in the translation process. I'm led to believe the actual term should be and probably is "Milan", not "England". yes indeed lost in translation, I will put the article on my private board and go through it there,
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Post by meldrew on Jan 29, 2013 13:04:04 GMT 1
some interesting stuff on that link hiflier, not the files we are looking for unfortunately,
here is a snippet I want to look more into, Marconi believed in extraterrestrials, and has issued several statements about it, he contends that he could communicate with each other via radio, in addition, after the events of '33, had a mysterious encounter in America with David Sarnoff, a prominent person U.S. Intelligence ( involved in the wave of rockets ghosts of '46 and in the studio of a famous UFO sighting filmed in 1966).
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Post by meldrew on Jan 29, 2013 14:48:29 GMT 1
Mussolini RS33 & The Maderno UFO Crash
Maderno the Location of a UFO crash in 1933
While events surrounding Roswell, New Mexico sixty years ago are world-famous, it was not the first time that a crashed alien space-craft was allegedly found and concealed by government officials. Yet, its existence is almost unknown outside Italy despite an abundance of authenticated contemporary documents confirming a downed UFO before World War II. June 13, 1933 A circular craft resembling a pair of saucers joined at their outer rims crashes near the town of Maderno, in Lombardy, northern Italy. The object, made of thin, silvery-grey metal, is about fifty feet in diameter and less than seven feet thick. Dorsal twin-booms or antenna-like features face in opposite directions from a delta-shaped configuration enclosed by a transparent blister. Two tubes are coupled where the design slopes upward from a flat underside, itself slung with two more pairs of oblong details. Eleven portholes run in a straight line on either side of the crafts upper half. Another eight appear on its lower portion, again on both sides, but are interrupted in the center of their line on one side by a trio of oval windows in what appears to be a rectangular hatch. An additional six, smaller, ovoid windows or lights are positioned at either end of the craft, which suffers extensive damage in the crash. No occupants in the object were found.
Crash Disc Italy Il Duce created. RS/33 Cabinet (“Research-Espionage/1933”), it is headquartered at Rome’s prestigious La Spezia University, the first MJ12 set up to study the crashed UFO situation in Italy it was headed by Marconi.
Marconi
“Among its members,” according to Lissoni, “the Cabinet had many of the most highly respected of Italian academics, members of the Royal Italian Academy of Sciences,” including the renowned Turin astronomer, Gino Cecchini. Marconi’s political assistant. To ensure censorship and promote public disinformation they used master spy,
Code Name De Santi Responsible for Media Monitoring of UFO Incident Italy Tommaso David, code-named “De Santi,” one of Italy's leading spies,
Alleged Diagram UFO Italy
January 1936 After reconstructing the Maderno object to the best of their ability and nearly three years of investigation, the scientifically distinguished members of RS/33 come to a last assessment. They began their examination on the assumption that the “velivolvi sconoscuti” or “unknown aircraft” is an example “of secret, new Western weaponry,” but eventually conclude that it had not been manufactured by any industrial power on earth, but was made by a vastly superior civilization from another world
Orginal RS33 memo
Mussolini says the Federation of Fascist Combatants, “The United States is far more likely to be invaded, not by Axis soldiers, but by the less-well-known, though rather warlike inhabitants of the planet Mars, who will descend from outer space in their unimaginable flying fortresses.” He was torn between joining the Axis Forces or Allies because of this incident.www.tonytopping.com/mussolini-rs33-the-maderno-ufo-crash/
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Tommy
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Post by Tommy on Jan 29, 2013 20:16:03 GMT 1
The below text is copied from the shoutbox so it doesnt get lost. Tommy: I knew Id heard that name before, marconi, there's a documentary called UFO's untold stories, its a case about an airship that emited two discs, the ufo reseearcher recieved the supposed documents through the post,Edit<abbr class="time recent_time" title="Tue Jan 29 18:37:46 UTC 2013" data-timestamp="1359484666000">36 minutes ago</abbr>x Tommy: UFO historian Mark Pilkington did some investigation on the original documents, there you go meldrew there's a good lead for you Edit<abbr class="time recent_time" title="Tue Jan 29 18:43:33 UTC 2013" data-timestamp="1359485013000">30 minutes ago</abbr>x meldrew: cheers for that, this will take a while to get together properly, I read that the nazi ufos were created due to back engineering of the crashed disc in Italy in 33Edit<abbr class="time recent_time" title="Tue Jan 29 18:58:14 UTC 2013" data-timestamp="1359485894000">15 minutes ago</abbr>x Tommy: If you get in touch with Mark Pilkington he has copys of the original documents he might be able to supply to you, Ive not looked at your thread yet either.
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webrat
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Post by webrat on Jan 30, 2013 21:33:47 GMT 1
I just love the older materials on this subject.The mindset was so different back then.Governments always worried the 'other side' had made advancements beyond their own capabilities but upon further investigation,they seemed to have no problems with announcing that an extraterrestrial intelligences were really the creators.
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Tommy
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Post by Tommy on Feb 1, 2013 15:54:37 GMT 1
Did you follow up on my lead meldrew ?
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Tommy
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Post by Tommy on Feb 1, 2013 16:37:03 GMT 1
You dont have to answer my question meldrew, as I know for a fact you never followed up on my lead, however I did. I have spoke with Mark Pilkington and he has informed me that the files are a HOAX. below is en email from him. Quote: Hello Tommy I don't have copies of the alleged Mussolini UFO files and my impression is that they are entirely bogus - a hoax either perpetrated by persons unknown on Alfredo Lissoni and Roberto Pinotti, or possibly, by one of them upon the other. Here's a little bit of info that I sent to a TV researcher. Very best Mark * My own concerns are partly with the timing of the document's arrival in 1996: - this was the height of popular interest in the UFO subject - X Files was huge on TV, Independence Day was huge in the cinema, the (fake) Roswell Autopsy footage was making front page news headlines - people were travelling the world lecturing to packed audience telling them that UFOs were real . * The files are essentially a copy, in spirit, of the MJ-12 papers that made such a huge stir in the US UFO community in the 1980s. the premise is identical - crashed saucers leading to the setting up of a highly secretive military and scientific research organisation to study them. As Eduardo Russo points out above, there are no other references at all - in Italian or internationally that make any reference either to the files or crashed discs or the project. * I'd also ask why, when Mussolini was quite happy to bluster to the world about other forms of secret weapons - death rays etc - he didn't use these crashed spacecraft as a propaganda tool either before or during WWII - it strikes me as entirely against type for him to keep something this incredible a secret. *I'm also deeply suspicious of the way these stories were then fed into the parallel Nazi UFO myth, which itself began with a handful of dubious newspaper articles in 1950 and amounts to nothing more than that, despite many dubious claims made by some extremely dubious people. * As far as I know only one archival specialist has been allowed to analyse the documents on Pinotti's behalf. When I asked Eduardo Russo, a serious Italian UFO historian about this he replied: "Have I to say it's alla blatant hoax played upon Roberto Pinotti and his Centro Ufologico Nazionale, who have been gladly promoting here and there? No official document in serious archives have ever been found confirming those anonimously-sent letters and docs (and you all know there should be plenty of). You won't even found any serious-minded Italian ufologist or historian willing to spend any time in order to comment and demolish those pseudocs, though a CISU member and professional archivist, Massimiliano Grandi did a little checking work and asked for [unrepeatable] comments from his fellows, finally having a couple of articles published in our journal (if anybody is interested I may forward copy... in Italian). Ah, Massimiliano was refused a full copy of those docs, when he asked those in the possession... (blessed are those who believe etc.)." * So the entire Venice UFO sighting story is something of a red herring as it only exists within these files which are already bogus. On 31 Jan 2013, at 15:34, UFO Research Network wrote: > > Dear sir, > > My name is Tommy, I understand that you have done some research on the Italian UFO Files, do you still have copys of the files? and would it be possible for me get get some copys from you? I am also very interested as to what your conclusions are to these file's, I own a UFO forum and this subject has come up so I am trying to find out as much information as possible. I would be very gratefull if you would be able to help me out with this matter as you are the only person I know here in the UK that has done any research on them. > > Thank you very much for your time > > Tommy xxxxxxxx > > UFO Research Network > > uforesearchnetwork.proboards.com/So there you have it Ive done your Research for you
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Post by meldrew on Feb 1, 2013 20:34:35 GMT 1
about time you done something, looks like all your nazi stuff was a waste of time doesn't it ?
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Laurance
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Post by Laurance on Feb 2, 2013 11:25:59 GMT 1
That picture of the Italy UFO has been used in books about Nazi UFOs. The thing about these files is they seem to be cashing in on the Nazi UFO theme. The supposed Black Forest cash happened in 1933, same year as the Maderno crash.
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uforn
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Post by uforn on Apr 10, 2013 19:45:28 GMT 1
about time you done something, looks like all your nazi stuff was a waste of time doesn't it ? What has the NAZI UFO Theory got to do with these fabricated files ? These file's are supposed to be the "Italian UFO Files" ? We need to authenticate these file's but so far there has been no authentification at all, they just landed on a UFO Researcher's desk and thats it
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